3 Counter-Arguments For Online Poker Being Rigged.
Nobody likes bad beats. In fact, some people hate bad beats so much that they ultimately conclude that online poker has to be rigged. There is just no other possible way… the poker rooms have been rigged to steal all your hard earned money.
If you have visited a forum more than once, the chances are that you have stumbled upon your fair share of “Rigged” threads with furious players highlighting how fixed online poker is because their AK lost to AJ after calling all-in.
However, all of these threads follow a similar template, with the same arguments being thrown around every time. Here are a handful of my favourite arguments that help put these unfortunate players and their horrendous threads to rest…
Poker rooms do not care if you win or lose.
Poker rooms make money by having you play lots of hands at their tables. The Poker rooms take a little bit of money out of each pot, which is known as the “rake”. The more hands you play, the more money the Poker room makes.
It does not matter whether you win or lose a hand, as the Poker room still takes its cut either way. PokerStars does not make money directly from your losses, so why are they going to rig the cards so that you lose?
That’s the most counter-productive thing to do if you end up losing your money and stop playing at their tables, so if anything the Poker room wants you to win as much money as possible.
You play a lot more hands online than you do at a live table.
Another favourite argument amongst sore online players is that they see far more bad beats than they do at live tables. Guess what, I agree 100% with this one – you do see more bad beats online than you do offline. But that’s not because the hands are rigged…
The more hands you play, the more bad beats you will see. It’s as simple as that.
In addition, when you mix in the fact that players can hide behind their computer screens and make as many wild plays as they like, you are not going to see them being berated and become embarrassed at the table. This lack of fear of being made of a fool of leaves the door open for all sorts of crazy plays.
No wonder you see more bad beats online.
Got any stats?
“Rigged” thread starters are all very quick to make wild accusations, but are there any stats there to back them up? There are a number of great trackers out there that will track every hand you play, so why not use these to point out the obvious anomalies in the software?
I am yet to see a honest graph or set of stats highlighting a Poker player receiving far more bad beats than (near) mathematically possible, or with results so obscure that the hands that are playing in cannot possibly be natural.
Overview.
Poker is one of the safest forms of online gambling I have come across. The vast majority of online betting shops and Casinos are safe, but Poker rooms are about as trustworthy as you’re going to get.
There has been the incident on the rogue Poker room Absolute in the past, but aside from this you can be confident that Poker rooms are not out there to go out of their way to scam you out of their money.
You’re better off reading a few strategy articles and working on your game rather than typing up an angry forum thread. Winning Poker players fix the holes in their game rather than look for excuses.
If you’re uncertain of whether the game is safe or not, even after reading this article than we suggest two things – you can pull your money offline and choose not to play at all or check out Pokerstars since they are the largest poker room online and one of the most respected poker sites available.
tmurray said
am March 6 2009 @ 9:38 pm
Your argument is weak. Of course its rigged. You said it yourself. Online sites rely on rake. They need to keep the good players from pushing out the bad players so they even the field by crushing the deck. Basically making every hand a tossup. What convinced me that online poker is rigged is the hole cards. I had on several occasions recieved the same start cards repeatedly. In a series of 5 hands I got the same hole cards 3 times. This is a clear indication that the software is not a pure RCG but has code (obviusly not perfect)that is dictating the tendencies.
Rob Scott said
am March 8 2009 @ 10:37 am
Your argument doesn’t apply to tournaments, though, which is what I play most of the time. In a tourney, the poker site does better if people are out quicker (as they will often go and play in another tournament). Now, I’m not saying that this means they WILL rig these hands, I’m just saying that it defeats your first counter argument, at least in tournament play.
I have seen some poker sites where bad-beats are practically guaranteed in tournaments. I also firmly believe that some others favour the chip leader. This is after playing thousands of hands on these sites. I’m not sore about it, but it does certainly flavour my playing style.
I would have only one counter argument to anyone producing the “its all rigged against me” sour grapes: if you’re losing money at poker, stop playing, or accept that its going to cost you, and take it on the chin.
Yousuckatthelife said
am March 27 2009 @ 9:01 am
Your argument is good except it lacks logic and any thought or use of synapses other than pushing electrical impulses to the fingers to type. So, seriously stfu you got no clue your arguments have been already been shown to be false, ever heard of UB or AP??? Retard sit in the corner and think about what you just typed and realize you have no clue just spouting uninformed drivel based on your opinions which you view as facts.
matt sanders said
am April 2 2009 @ 3:50 am
i dont agree with you at all , i ve read all the books from have brunson to negranau and they have absolutely no relevannce to online poker at all, because your basically playing a lottery as far as i,m concerned online. its amazing how the amount of times u get get beat by 3 outs. the magic river card coming the majority of the time. i always notice after you cash on a site you always seem to get spiked . some recnt examles of hand histories 3,3, flop a.3 8 slow play it a,8 , 8,9 diamonds flop j,10 diamonds 4 clubs go all in hit my diamond only for another diamond to come, i go all in on a flush rarely hit, also if u hit a big hand previously u always get outdrawn never win two in row online fact. have a monster second lose always, prime example 4,7 folded flop j,4,4,7,8, next hand pocket 10,s flop 10,j,k check he goes all in with aces hits his gutshot.card after cards makes there st8 makes there flush .you insult me by saying to read strategy books and play i have been playing for 7 years and yes i am justup i would like to see you pplay on my account and wld you be folding sets flushes continiously im not stupid i can read plays like 10,7,10,q,k knowing that when i raise and he reraises then he got possibilities of a fulhouse or higher flush. i,ve played both online and live and certainly at casinos u dont see the magic bullet at the end of the day is no more than at 20% shot most of the time lower constantly coming in. i have left most of them now because of th rubbish i see, and some i find extremely dubious example play 10/20 dollars nl j,10 vs a,2 flop 5,,8 10 raise 100 dollars he calls,turn 3 raise 200 dollars he calls now u tell me who is gonna call that a,2 what outs have they got thats another thing the regularity of aces on the river,its amazing tha amount of times they come in when uve commited yourselfup to the turn and get outdrawn u hardly ever see them coming in the flop but boy oh boy they dont half often come up on that river.online poker rewards bad play there are set patterns in it i see so many of them, prime example as above win with a monster ,then get aces,kings,queens next hand and lose or another favourite is holdind jacks, raise get called by some garbage like 5,7 flop comes 10,9,8 keep on raising only for the 6 to come on the river regurlar occurence.i dont know why they bother with pker calculators online because when it says u are 80% to win it shld be the other way round.if your winnig then good luck to you because u must be fishing for 6 outs on continious basis because thats all it is a lottery , not even that because i think the flop is prdermined before it is even dealt so you probably have more chance on the lottery,always giveing you action flops that you shldnt lose lose but always do,hands you cant get away from, but call the outcome from the start. i knew i;d lose with 10,s b4 i even called even after i hit the set when 10,j,k come i called he had a,q well he did have 2 cards later.mite as play the fruit machines online about the same odds . if you cant see patterns then you must be blind. like i said i wld love to watch you play and see how much you make with my i .p address i,m sure youd be sitting and wondering how that gutshot beat you or those four running diamond came in or j,q,k,10 came in on cards 2 to 5 with 1st one of the flop being irrelavant, any your probably writing from pokerstars head office management team ,trying to justify how you scam millions of people everyday.
Fuzion Poker said
am April 3 2009 @ 5:56 pm
No we don’t work with Pokerstars. We promote their site but we don’t work for them. We are an affiliate. The poker rooms don’t scam players out of money. They don’t need to.
gigster said
am April 4 2009 @ 7:04 pm
well im playin online poker for 2 years now and from my experience and from what i saw im very convinced that online poker is rigged! IN live game there is no way and mathematical odds that so many suckouts will come almost every day and so many hole cards to give the action in hand and i dont know if somebody else noticed pattern when u sit on table and u just can win a single hand no matter how good your hole cards are, youll get a suckout for sure! And im experiencing this almost every day, im playin fix limit 2-4, 5-10$ and im a winning player only because im havin good rake deal if i havent i wouldnt even play online! My conclusion is that online poker software is designed to give much more preflop action and to reward those fishy callin stations and leave them in the game much more then playin live in order to collect more rake per hour or day or month! Simply as that, why would u earn 5000$ per hour when u can just rig a little bit software and earn from rake 20000$ per hour, i would do it too!!!
daz said
am May 5 2009 @ 2:09 am
hey sit at a online table with 3-4 mates on msn or yahoo and let each other know what you all holdin and hey presto you save the money split at end doesnt matter who comes to table with money few hands they have none woops what have i done LET YA ALL KNOW TRY IT YOU”LL LIKE THE RESULTS YOU GET FROM IT SO GOOD WHO CARES ABOUT THE SITE SCAMING PLAYERS WHEN ITS THE PLAYERS DOIN MORE DAMADGE SO TRY STOP THIS ONE FROM STILL HAPPENING GOD YOU ARE ALL SO SILLY TO WAIST YOU MONEY PLAYIN ONLINE CARDS DO IT AT THE CASINO
WAKE UP ALL OF YOU
death said
am July 6 2009 @ 4:12 am
if casinos online are rigged – poker online is rigged
casinos online are rigged?
empxl said
am October 11 2009 @ 1:43 pm
funny how all u sites that say online pokers not rigged all advrtise or sponcer a poker site,ive played 6 years on line and theres no doubt in my mind low stake mtts and sngs are fixed to hurry things along eg big stack wins far more often than they should and hands are set up to finish games quicker so people join other games and the site takes more fees,i play live all the time and it just dosen happen like it does onlne
patrick said
am November 14 2009 @ 4:43 pm
online poker is def rigged iv been playin it for 3 years. they always give u pocket pairs agaist each other example kk aa much more often so u bet more an the more u bet the more they rake paddypower poker is rigged
Ben Blade said
am November 26 2009 @ 9:43 pm
I’m a damn good poker player. I’ve won live tournaments and made thousands in live cash games. Any talented poker player inevitably concludes that ALL online poker is rigged. And anyone who points at us saying that we’re just sore losers, you’re probably making money playing online poker because you’re not a good player. It sounds backwards, but I’ll explain.
Think about this. 90% of online poker players are fucking awful. That means that 90% of online poker players should be losing money. But they’re not.
If the percentages were balanced, the best 10% of the players would consistently clean out the bottom 90%. The fish would eventually stop playing and the online poker market would shrink 10/1. Pokerstars, Full Tilt, UB, they’re all the same. They have to be to compete.
Without adjusting the percentages to favor the underdogs, or at least make it even, they would lose 90% of their customers and thus, 90% of their rake/revenue. It’s greed, plain and simple.
Steve T said
am December 13 2009 @ 1:00 am
I have never seen online poker play out like a real game. The bad beats and the suckouts on sites like pokerstars do not exist in the real world. There are a few things you will notice that are consistent on sites that argue online poker is not rigged. First you will see they advertise all the major poker sites. How unbiased is anyone gonna be getting ad dollars from the poker sites? Second the columns are written by screen names that can NOT be found on the poker sites they claim are not rigged. You go out of your way to write about a site not being rigged yet you won’t play on it? Watch on some of the tables and you will see a player come on the table bet nothing hands to the river, hit the card they need on the river 4, 5, or 6 hands in a row. After winning on bets no one would make in the real world they dissappear. If you go to look for these players on another table they can’t be found. If I was winning hand after hand I would stay until I lost 1 or 2 not book it never to be seen again. The advice I love the best from the people defending the poker sites is when they say keep betting your money on the site for 20,000 hands or so and use a card tracker program to keep tabs on the play. They will say no one does this. How stupid, how long is anyone going to stay on a site ripping them off? I tell you what, pokerstars or full tilt, I will play with your money for 20,000 hands or so and keep tabs. Under a name you of course will not know. Then after you ripped me off for your own money I will show you the tracker results. It amazes me that any poker site would think so little of the general public so as to think we would not know they make these sites themselves.
Steve T said
am December 13 2009 @ 1:17 am
Can’t help it. What kind of ignorant, stupid comment is we don’t work with pokerstars we are an affiliate? We just promote them? Are you nuts? I run a Garage, I don’t work for quaker state but I promote their products. CAUSE I GET PAID FOR IT ! Just like you get paid from pokerstars. It’s comments like that that make sites like yours NOT credible. I have yet to see any poker is not rigged site credibly argue the point. if you want to come across with some semblance of not looking like idiots, first you have to assume that most people reading your site are not idiots. if you do that then speak, well maybe, and I mean maybe, you might come up with something a little more plausable.
Fuck-You said
am December 27 2009 @ 3:44 pm
Your So Full of Shit and It’s Painfully fucking obvious your a pokerstars crony.Online poker is illegal everywhere except for sum fuctard islands where poor fucking natives have no fucking money and are willing look the other way when a white man gives there local politician a big bag of Ca$h and where there’s no fucking laws for internet gambling.Check out Pokerstars is that your best sales pitch your fucking cunt.
dik head said
am January 23 2010 @ 7:20 am
I totally agree online sites are rigged. I have asked PS for stats on the percentage of times there is a river suckout, they will not give me this data. So many times I have lost to a suckout that had a 2 to 8% chance of hitting. These low percentage hits definitely happen a greater percentage of times than the odds would prove.
Another issue I have not seen addressed is bot/house players. You see these players calling pre-flop raises with total garbage then hitting their hand. I was on Only Poker (thought it played better than PS, FT, UB) did a big pre-flop raise with AA. Had one caller, the flop was 3 small cards, I pushed and was called. We turned over this guy had 5,6 off. I’m sure your ahead of me, rivered a strait. Who plays like this? Calls a big pre-flop raise, has a draw for a strait after the flop and calls an all-in. The only player who plays like this is one who has inside information as to the cards that are coming. You think there is a lot of money to make on the rake, how about the $$ to make winning pots.
I love playing poker and online makes it so easy. As much as I hate to say it, I think we need the government to regulate and verify all software, validate percentages of various hands winning equal out to the mathematical calculations. Validate these 2% chances are only happening 2% of the time. Until we know the legitimacy and have controls in place, no telling what is going on behind the scenes. I know there is a lot of controversy to this subject, but you believe want you want, I believe what I see.
You Idiot said
am February 1 2010 @ 11:17 pm
“I don’t work for Pokerstarts”.
“I am an affiliate”.
You are a fucking retard.
Fuzion Poker said
am February 12 2010 @ 10:21 am
LOL… wow, the comments here are epic.
Working for Pokerstars would mean I work in their offices in Isle of Man and receive a paycheck with Pokerstars on it, which I do not.
Working as an affiliate simply means I get paid a referal fee for players that I bring to the site. I have never denied being paid, but I also don’t receive a monthly paycheck from them. That would basically be saying that everyone who receives a refer-a-friend bonus works for them. Really?
Sites like Pokerstars and Full Tilt have no need to rig their games. They are sitting on a virtual money tree so why would they do anything to jeopordize the integrity of their games.
I am also a poker player and have had thousands of sickening hands, but I also don’t jump to conclusions saying the games are rigged.
Its a game of math… unless you are 100% to win on a flop, bad things can come on the turn and the river. Remember, there is an element of luck to this game!
For the record, this article was submitted to me by another webmaster, I did not write it.
albert bradshaw said
am February 13 2010 @ 8:36 am
Ive been a part of partypoker for 2 1/2 months lost 2000 dollars and won nothing a few little games.
I believe the cards are stacked for the bigger players
as for playing that long and losing i feel it is a scam for the big guns.
we dont hear much of the little man winning so seems a little bit leary to me.
I donmt know if anyone know of anyone lost that long and not win somthing half good
everyday i pay too i dont know
like to hear some feadback
tkx
albert
so
albert said
am February 13 2010 @ 8:38 am
let ya know if things get better!
albert said
am February 14 2010 @ 4:07 pm
stopped playing its a scam
shane said
am February 23 2010 @ 8:25 pm
Of course its rigged, it has to be, in real life you can’t play a 50000 player tournament in one day, it would take a couple weeks. Your set up to lose, so you have to be careful, I would like to see it more even when going up against a big stack though, they seem to be favoured with all in hands!!!
Xavier said
am February 28 2010 @ 1:47 pm
Do you think that RNGs which rely on natural entropy and software are more or less random than the shuffling of a deck of cards?
Xavier said
am February 28 2010 @ 2:29 pm
Albert gave it one day to get better…Of course it is rigged for the “big players.” It is just like any other capitalist enterprise; where the money is at the top. This does not mean that the card room is scheming against you. If you want to make “big money” you have to:
1. Get Super Lucky (or have a lot of positive variance)
2. Study the game and work your way up. Of course on your way to the top you will encounter long stretches of negative variance. Long times where it seems like no matter what you do, you lose. If you understand poker, then you should know that it is a long term game. If you want to make money you have to play in the long term. With a large enough sample the distribution will approach normality. Please, educate yourself as to the facts.
Imagine if you only began playing poker live. You hit a stretch of positive variance. This stretch may seem to last because you play fewer hands (smaller sample) than you do on the internet. Eventually, you would realize, as you played more hands(larger sample),that your positive variance would be balanced by stretches of negative and normal variance. It is important not only to maximize how much you win during times of positive variance, but also to minimize the amount that you lose during times of negative variance.
Please, forgive me I am an amateur statistician. However, I think that my weak statistical skills illustrate the point that: It does not take much to understand that the REASON(s) THAT YOU ARE LOSING IS NOT BECAUSE THE CARDS ARE RIGGED AGAINST YOU.
Alternatively, you could accept that you are simply a recreational player. You will win somtimes, and you might get really lucky and hit a big score; but you will lose a lot of the time too. And because you are playing such a small number of hands your negative stretches may seem really long. You have to enjoy playing the game whether you are winning or losing.
Xavier said
am March 1 2010 @ 12:22 pm
You can run a 50,000 player tourney in one day online because:
1. It is possible to play many more hands online. This is because you do not have to wait for the cards to be shuffled or the chips to be counted.
2. The structure of the tournament (faster levels) allow the tournament to end in a timely fashion.
3. People probably play looser, and faster on the internet because there is no fear of being embarrassed while sitting behind you computer screen.
If I am not mistaken there have been online tournaments which have taken more than one day to complete.
Xavier said
am March 1 2010 @ 12:30 pm
Bots may be a real issue. If you search you will find that there is a whole community of poker botters. Fortunately, most poker bots and losing players; and the amount of time, effort, and knowledge which would be required to make a successful bot creates a large barrier to entry.
Some web-site prohibit the use of bots. Some actively enforce these rules and others do not. Some websites do not care because the bots generate rake and traffic. A company has limited resources and perhaps some feel that their resources are better spent elsewhere. If you think that you have encountered a bot then you should notify the poker room. Also, check their TOS to see what their policy is towards poker bots.
And as many have said before; if you feel that you are being cheated then take you money and go elsewhere. Complaining all over the internet is bad poker- Instead of being part of the problem, make yourself part of the solution.
Xavier said
am March 1 2010 @ 12:34 pm
My above post should say “Complaining all over the internet is bad for poker.” All these negative comments could scare off new players. Players who are critical to the growth of the poker community.
Xavier said
am March 1 2010 @ 12:46 pm
In response to dik head said:
If you are holding AdAh while your opponent holds 5c4s and the flop comes 2h3h7d
Your opponent would still have about a 1 in 5 chance of winning.
If you would like to educate yourself, you can download Poker Stove and input hands and ranges to find %’s.
Many people play piss poor poker and get lucky. This does not mean that they have inside information. It just means that they are bad players. You should be happy to see them at your table, knowing that, in the long run you will get your money back from them (if you play smart.)
Just to counteract the argument before it arrives: I do no work for any poker room online or off.
nobunsallowed said
am April 30 2010 @ 5:28 am
to anyone who wants to c how pro’s really do in these online poker tourneys try http://www.propokerlabs.com it tracks nearly every player on a ton of sites, just look urself up first if u dont beleive me, u’ll c that nearly all live game pros r losers online. online poker isnt fixed as much as it is impossible to win due to the rake and having no real idea what ur opponent is holding behind his screen. plus to those who just blah blah blah i never lose, that’s because even over the course of years some players r far more fortunate than others, u dont get in w/ ur KK five tourneys in a row preflop only to c ur opp flip over AA and bull like that. but that’s all the b****in i shall do…
Cowboy Billy said
am May 29 2010 @ 12:14 am
It’s all a SCAM. Internet Poker used to be legit during the earlier days but it’s certainly RIGGED today. Tourneys are rigged to finish faster and cash games are rigged to help the fishes stay even. Its gotten so bad that even withdrawing your money is a gamble itself. Whatever you do, never deposit! There are many ways to play for real money without depositing so don’t deposit. Don’t feed those thieving scumbags until the industry changes.
T-Mo said
am June 9 2010 @ 3:43 pm
Its defo Rigged, anyone who says it isnt just shut the fuck up, people are loosing so much money because of internet poker, bad players win too much and xavier for someone who studied stats u talk a lot of shit, everything u say is true in poker but it just does not play out that way online, the high %’s loose too much, good players loose too much, players who are winning in casinos are loosing thousands online, look at the amount of ppl complaning!! Poker is a beautiful game and people say its rise is due to internet poker, well now that there are millions of playres there is no longer need for internet poker, virtually evety city and town in europe and america would have enough poker fans to sey up poker clubs and MTTs, and there would be fuk all rigging with real cards bar the odd genius who is able to hide pocket aces up his top.
nobunsallowed said
am July 7 2010 @ 4:32 am
How come some days u win every hand, and some days u lose every hand, that’s all i’d like to know about online poker. for years i’ve refused to buy into the whole it’s fixed thing, but too many times have i seen just one chair win win win all day every person who sits in it no matter how they play, then another person lose every single hand. the best example i checked my stats, won 1 hand out of 112 b4 i went bust obviously. even if ur terrible, w/ an average of 7 at the table throughout the session, how do u get delt that dead? i still refused to beleive online sites r intentionally rigged, but i do beleive now there’s a glitch in the hands that r “randomly” delt.
Jun said
am August 11 2010 @ 8:08 am
it is rigged, it makes people play more, so they can get maximum rake possible. I played about one week.
rake i Paid is about $50 and I made about 5 bucks.
So winner is partypoker everytime.